Application for a Judicial Review - Police MSSA reclassification

[second shooter]

It may be legal to hunt with a pistol ? you can own an antique cap and ball pistol with no licence, many of them will be sturdy enough to fire safely( i have seen rifles of the same era sometimes shot at the range)
anybody here an expert on the arms act? i dont think i would bother trying but it would be interesting to know?

[colt45]

Does anyone have the justifications for certian regulations?
Why can't we hunt with pistols if endorsed with a B?

Surely who ever came up with these rules and regulations must have had some reasoning behind why they were thought to be good ideas and im curious if anyone has them.

I can hopefully answer this one for you.
Because when pistol shooting was in it's very infancy in NZ a Memorandum of Understanding was drafted between what is now Pistol NZ and the NZ Police.
In order to justify why private citizens "needed" to own hand guns part of that memorandum was to outline the reason why, and that reason given was "to engage in the sport of pistol target shooting", one has to remember that when pistol shooting started out in NZ it was very much different to what it is today, single shot 22lr target pistols and eventually upgrading to 38spl revolvers, now we can pretty much own anything we want but are still regulated by a 30+ year old agreement, I wouldn't hold my breath thinking it will change soon if ever.
A little short sighted I would agree, but that is how it was worded and is still worded, to change it now would stir up some very vociferous objections from Pistol NZ I can assure you, trust me you don't want to go there, AND Pistol NZ has considerable sway with the police so your up against both of them.
It's a little like why we aren't "allowed" to shoot IDPA matches in NZ, and trust me, you don't want to go down that line of discussion either, a couple of us have in recent times and all it did was to stir up a lot of very loud voices.

Hope this helps

[colt45]

[quote="second shooter"]It may be legal to hunt with a pistol ? you can own an antique cap and ball pistol with no licence, /quote]

???not so sure about that???
I think you'll find you need a FAL and a "B" endorsement to own a cap and ball revolver, antique or modern repro.

The old pinfire cartridge revolvers didn't use to require a FAL, but that may have changed as well.

[Swa]

As to your argument regarding the sense of the extra security for E cat rifles Swa, why then didn't they just make all security comply with that of the E cat endorsement, surely this would be the most logical solution (and therefore the one not adopted! )

Ahhh I agree and could not put it better myself>
I would be buying shares in Sentry !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[FN Great]

I think you'll find you need a FAL and a "B" endorsement to own a cap and ball revolver, antique or modern repro.

Sorry Colt , I had my cap and ball long before I had my "B" and there is provision for "heirloom" pieces which basicly means that if grandady had an antique its yours. I can stand corrected on that as its a long time ago that I got my Tranter but I am reasonably confident I am correct.

[second shooter]

Had a quick look online at the arms act, under exemptions it lists..
any antique firearm
stock marking pistol
flare pistol
line thrower
underwater spear gun
net gun
plus a few others

its hard to find your way around the arms act and this could be an old version but thats what it says, a while ago i read something about kea guns registered before a certian date required no endorsement?

[colt45]

I think you'll find you need a FAL and a "B" endorsement to own a cap and ball revolver, antique or modern repro.

Sorry Colt , I had my cap and ball long before I had my "B" and there is provision for "heirloom" pieces which basicly means that if grandady had an antique its yours. I can stand corrected on that as its a long time ago that I got my Tranter but I am reasonably confident I am correct.

Had a quick look online at the arms act, under exemptions it lists..
any antique firearm
stock marking pistol
flare pistol
line thrower
underwater spear gun
net gun
plus a few others

its hard to find your way around the arms act and this could be an old version but thats what it says, a while ago i read something about kea guns registered before a certian date required no endorsement?

I stand partially corrected.
You may, (?), be able to own one without a FAL or "B", I'd be surprised if you could buy one,( today and legitimately) without a FAL and your "B".
AND if you can walk into a gunshop and buy a cap and ball revolver, (of any age) some black powder and some percussion caps, without a FAL then what the hell is the point of anyone having a firearms license?
OR is this just another stupid loophole in NZ's firearms laws

[second shooter]

Check out trade me, usually 1 or 2 a week, at the moment there is a brass barreld percussion pistol (missing a few parts)buy now 200 , no FAL required., last week a colt type percussion revolver, and pin fire pepper box(both fetched good prices)
i dont think old percussion pistols are what drug dealers and bank robbers go in for! in the US all muzzel loading firearms new an old dont require a licence . in brittian the rules are similar, over there i bought an old muzzel loader with no licence.

[colt45]

Well I'll be jiggered.
That just seems crazy to me

[V1coy68]

Its also always been the case at Teds auctions etc BUT i noticed last auction in the front of the catalogue it said " The police have advised that anyone purshasing an antique pistol at the auction must have a FAL to purchase these firearms and appropriate endorsments to bid on parts and componants of restricted or registered firearms" I dont know if this included mags?

[JayDee]

Antique Pistols (and to a lesser extent rifles/shotguns/muskets) can be owned without a licence ... as long as they are never fired - if you wish to fire them the appropriate licence is required. Generally, the firearms concerned need some 'historical' or 'family' significance to the owner to be exempt from licencing.

As far as the 12 pistols only 'Heads of Agreement' between NZPistol and the Police - there is no restriction in the LAW in the numbers of Pistols a 'B' endorsement Licencee may possess - it is merely an NZPistol 'rule' that any member club agrees that its members will abide by that Association 'rule'. Other than the ability of the NZPistol to insist that anyone who 'breaks' their 'rules' be ejected from the club (and thus loose the ability to fullfill the Laws requirements for a 'B' endorsement) the status of the 'heads of Agreement .. in Law ... is certainly argueable. For instance, can 2nd (the Police) and 3rd (NZPistol) properly 'agree' to have an 'opinion' what the Law means - rathe rlike the present Judicial Review of police 'opinion' regarding the 'classification' of MSSAs ..... However, if supported by NZPistol people may have more than 12 Pistols if they can put up a convinving case for 'need' ie: competing in more than half a dozen types of pistol shooting - with a spare pistol for each disipline for instance.

Note that collectors with 'C' endorsements do not face the same 'agreed' restriction upon number of pistols as many do not belong to any 'club' and the Antique Arms and Historical Assocciation Inc. (to which some collectors belong) has entered into no 'Heads of Agreement' regarding numbers of items members can own (and are probably not silly enough to attempt to do so!).


There is simply no restriction upon the ownership of any numbers of firearms - any 'limitation' is simply 'policy' or 'rules' imposed by 2nd and 3rd parties ... IMHO

[second shooter]

I didnt see anything in the arms act that said antique firearms couldnt be fired unless the appropriate licence is held? it just listed them as exempt or exceptions.maybe it a case of policy being tacked on law . if one of our computer savvy mods could put a copy of the most recent arms act on the board somewhere so we can all refer to it at any time it would be usefull!

[Caerlonie]

You can legally own a genuine antique firearm (including pistols) without any license,but you can only keep them in your home as a curio or heirloom etc,you can't legally take them out and fire them without the correct type of license/endorsement.If you had a cap and ball colt revolver made 150 yrs ago you can possess it in your own home without a license but if you wanted to fire it you would have to have a B endorsement and have it registered on your license.

[JayDee]

Link to Arms Act 1983:

http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/publ ... 72622.html

Link to Arms Regulations 1992:

http://www.legislation.govt.nz/regulati ... 68889.html

Link to Arms Order 1984:

http://www.legislation.govt.nz/regulati ... 95640.html

Link to Arms Ammenment Bill No.3:

http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/PB/Legis ... l-No-3.htm

HTH!

[Krewzr]

March 2010 is almost upon us. This is the time that the Police department was threatening to start prosecuting law abiding responsible firearms owners who do not bow down to Police intimidation and the commissioner’s attempt to bypass the New Zealand parliamentary law making process by unlawfully demanding that we register our A category semi-automatic sporting firearms as E category military style semi-automatic firearms.

National Shooters Association advises all firearms owners who are being threatened by Police to stand their ground. Anyone who faces prosecution under the unlawful police intimidation campaign will have certain grounds to take civil legal action and would be entitled to punitive damages and costs.

The decision from the High Court is expected soon and that should put an end to the matter; (subject to appeal in the unlikely event that the wayward position of the Commissioner is endorsed by the judgment.)

National Shooters Association will advise as soon as the Court decision is released.